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Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-08, 2:36 pm

french7034
Posts: 126
Location: Paris
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Good afternoon all (and good morning in the US),
I have been reading all about these window closures and during my five trips to AMS this year I have noticed less of a buzz around De Wallen. Less windows, less punters, less atmosphere. I was there for work a few weeks ago and took a stroll after my meetings - there really wasn't much in the way of action. De Pijp was quiet with only a handful (at best) of ladies at any one time. When I last went to Singel in June there was very little going on at around 11pm, so it does seem the City is getting its way.

Here's a thought: what if I had say $2mm to spend and I decided to buy up some Kamers for "fashion" or whatever the fuck they want to replace the girls with. You could then have several regular ladies working in the "shop", but offering more traditional De Wallen services. Take it old school, back to the original working girls at an Ironmongers/Cobblers with the old red curtain (or so I read in a book about Amsterdam a while ago). It would be a case of being "in the know" or whatever, with some sort of quasi-speakeasy system in place.

My idea is not a sophisticated one, I have enough on my plate running my actual business, but I was just thinking about how someone with a bit of cash could help save the jewel in Amsterdam's crown... Re-reading this it does seem that starting this sort of thing would be the first step on a slippery slope, but I've come this far so I might as well put the topic out there!

Aside from doing this in a clandestine way, perhaps having a syndicate with enough money/legal expertise to legitimately buy windows and then fight the establishment (I have a legal friend in NL who tells me it would be quite easy to tie the authorities up for years with a complicated and medieval legal challenge to this).

I have some experience with this in the UK with various Real Estate acquisitions which have needed some creative legal work, so I wondered how easy it would be in NL?

Either way, any ideas or thoughts on this would be great to hear, even if it is wistful fantasy!

Cheers!
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-08, 6:07 pm

davey1800Power Kat XXX
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Well.. the windows are allocated to window prostitution. You can't just buy a property and then sell sex from it.. that would make it a brothel which the city wouldn't allow. Doing it "hush hush, wink wink" makes it an illegal brothel.

Also, the houses/windows in the RLD are at a premium.. even if any were on the market there would be a stampede for them. Your $2m wouldn't go far at all. In fact I'd hazard a guess that the seller would just ruffle your hair and send you on your way with a knowing smile ;)

It's best to just sit back and do nothing, other than to watch Amsterdam's once glorious past sink beneath the waves of "progress".
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-08, 6:39 pm

grimnul Power Kat
Posts: 1538
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I've been thinking about something like this as well. My family is in property management, so we have pretty deep pockets, and my Uncle, who's the CEO of the company is a very pragmatic man. If the potential was there for this to be a lucrative venture, he'd have no problem with renting to sex workers. We have a few bars and clubs in our buildings as is, and nearly rented out one of our units to a legal medicinal marijuana grow-op. He calls it the "sin tax".

Issue is, you'd need some way to get a brothel license in order to make this at all legal. I suppose you could apply for a non-specific business license and a brothel license, THEN buy out some windows once your license is granted. Would take some maneuvering and I don't know how possible it'd be. Either way, you'd have to pull a fast one on the government one way or another to get something like this going. I wish it were easier, because I have some pretty interesting ideas that I think would rejuvenate De Wallen and also make us a lot of money, but I just don't think it's practical.

The whole thing pisses me off. No one seems to care at all about legal prostitution. It's such an uphill battle to fight because of the stigma attached to the topic. 95% of people automatically react negatively if the topic is brought up. It's not just in Amsterdam, the government is trying to criminalize the purchase of sexual services here in Canada. I've been doing what I can, I have a friend with a lot of political connections, he got me in contact with an MP he's worked for in the past. I talked to the guy, but he didn't want to touch the issue. It's completely foolish because the new proposed laws will change precisely nothing (escort services advertise themselves as selling time, not sex, so they'd still be legal) while making things more difficult for the women the laws are supposedly trying to protect. There's a lot of money to be made for the government by having legal prostitution, and regulation makes things much safer for everyone involved.

No one even seems to know any of this is going on, though, and the few people that do either don't care or think it's a good thing. So many people are so ignorant about this issue, and sex workers themselves are often unable to fight for their trade due to the need for anonymity. There was a petition on change.org to save the windows in De Wallen, it only got about 200 signatures. I really don't know how to stop any of this. I guess the world just really hates prostitutes.
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-09, 2:05 am

weasel9x9Supporting Member
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Amsterdam is full of boarded up buildings owned by smart guys that thought they could sneak around a few laws and do what they fancied.
I'd love for AKADrPussy to jump in here, but I think it would be hard to find a more regulated patch of real estate than the buildings within the Grachtengordel (Canal Belt)
Historic buildings all, protected by national, state and city laws. Good Freaking luck.

Weasel

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Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-09, 3:32 am

grimnul Power Kat
Posts: 1538
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Yeah, it's probably not viable.

That said, I'm cautiously optimistic. I don't buy into all this doom and gloom. These things always tend to be cyclical. Elections happen, political climates shift, money changes hands. De Wallen is being pruned back now, but in a few years, who knows what'll happen? De Wallen does generate a lot of tourism dollars, the government's admitted that much. Could be this starts to affect the bottom line and people change their tune. Maybe not. Who knows?

On the plus side, a bunch of the ripoff girls'll probably leave for greener pastures, so there is somewhat of a silver lining. Either way, I'll still be headed over to Amsterdam a few times a year. Can't see it ever becoming completely devoid of fun.
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-09, 5:14 am

ams2008damPower Kat XXX
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I have always thought why are these red light districts been allowed to grow in prime locations.For me the way is to build there own little area outside the city with means of public transport so the only people that will see it is people that want to visit the place.Then you could control access to the area strictly so there would be no crime and a safe place for girls to work from.

None of us want to see changes to amsterdam as we love it but would you want to live in a area where you walk through this everyday with your kids in your home town I bet not.
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-09, 7:58 pm

george47 Power Kat
Posts: 1074
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I am still not seeing these changes to punters, girls or atmosphere. 10 years ago half the windows in Molensteeg were empty most of the time and the north end of OZA only had a tiny number of very unattractive girls. Now on a typical Friday night the north end of OZA has lots of pretty girls and Molensteeg has often been pretty full.
De Pijp is not part of Project 1012 and nothing has changed there apart from 4 windows closing in 2013 on the outskirts of the area. I haven't noticed it being quieter but if it is it's not because of the authorities.
Just 3 windows have closed in the Singel area since 2008 and these were a long way from the main area.
It's true that you seem to get periods where the area feels a bit dead but then a day later it's back to normal. 100 trips in 22 years and nothing significant has changed in my opinion. I would be willing to bet that nothing significant will change in the next 22 years either. Fewer windows simply means there will be less unattractive women. The better earners will "buy out" the others. This has already happened with poorer earners being offered large sums of money to give up their regular windows.
As for the other matter, illegal brothels / windows were tolerated in the past because the authorities decided to tolerate them. Any attempt at something similar now would be instantly stopped. The police aren't stupid, they know exactly what goes on and why on earth would a girl work illegally when she can work in an official window? If every official window in Holland was closed then they would just move or commute to Antwerp, Brussels, Germany etc.
With all this panic remember that numerically we have lost just one window since 2008 in the main red light district. If OZV 92-U and 92-S are still open then there is actually one more than in 2008. Don't forget that the 2012 closed windows were replaced by older ones re-opening.
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-09, 9:14 pm

lilji
Posts: 432
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Even tho it's city centre, I would say that the only reason for entering the main RLD is to be in the RLD or to cut through for a shortcut. It's easily avoidable if you don't wish to go there with other areas providing the family friendly stuff. I also think the issue of the RLD is so tricky that it would be hard to push through huge scale clsures...or maybe I'm just hopeful. I think coffeeshops in random places have more to worry about tho.
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-10, 4:02 pm

french7034
Posts: 126
Location: Paris
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Perhaps it was just the time of day I was there (2pm-3pm on a Tuesday afternoon). I've got to say that in the ten years I have been coming to NL I have noticed closures and less of a buzz. It's just the subtle erosion that I notice; a few windows are closed and here and there, then it's a club, then before long we're faced with countless fashion designers and off the run antique stores.. I live in Chelsea, so if I wanted that I would stay at home!
All this said, I was there for both Kings Day and New Years Eve and each time it was absolutely rocking (NYE was amazing, although it was a little like a warzone).

Alas I knew the answer to this: of course the authorities would be quick to jump on any illegal activities, but I have to say that it is worrying that these plans are being pushed ahead. Being from the UK I know something about being treated like a child, and the reason Amsterdam feels like home to me is the freedom and tolerance I started to experience there when I was 16 (I am not such a veteran as a lot of you fine gentlemen, so perhaps I panic about closures as I haven't seen the ebbs and flows of the RLD over more than a decade).

It was more to start a conversation, though I would have loved a huge response of people offering to help structure a legal and financial case to attack the do-gooders and start buying up property!

3 weeks until I return for the sixth time this year; I might just have to give Agnieszka a whirl this time as I haven't yet managed to meet her! :)

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Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-19, 11:59 pm

george47 Power Kat
Posts: 1074
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There are new reports of 47 possible window closures-

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... icence.php
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

It's clear that some of these owners are involved in illegal activities and must take their part of the blame as much as Project 1012. In this case it seems that another owner would be allowed to take over the windows should Willem van der Meulenso's license not be renewed. Do you have your cheque book ready french7034?
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-20, 2:40 am

grimnul Power Kat
Posts: 1538
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george47 wrote:
There are new reports of 47 possible window closures-

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... icence.php
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

It's clear that some of these owners are involved in illegal activities and must take their part of the blame as much as Project 1012. In this case it seems that another owner would be allowed to take over the windows should Willem van der Meulenso's license not be renewed. Do you have your cheque book ready french7034?

I'm of two minds about this.

On the one hand, I question the validity of these allegations as, to my understanding, if a girl is brought into the country by a sponsor for the sole purpose of engaging in prostitution of her own volition, she is legally considered the same as girls who are brought in against their will. As such, I question the government's motives and whether any actual abuse is really taking place here.

On the other hand, if abuse is happening, then I think the government is doing the right thing here. I, personally, see mongering as a bit of harmless fun, and I want no part in exploiting or abusing these girls. Owners do have an onus to ensure that the girls working in their establishments are safe and free of abuse, and if they are not doing that, whether by complacency or conspiracy, they should be held accountable. Incidents like this only give ammunition to the anti-prostitution zealots. Owners need to show that they are willing and able to ensure that their businesses are being run in a morally upstanding, non-exploitive way.

Either way, I'm going be interested to see how this plays out. I'm going to bring this up to my uncle, if there is an opportunity that develops out of this, it might be worth looking in to.
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-20, 2:04 pm

KDuck01
Posts: 71
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Supposedly "illegal" activities. Another lie from city government used as an "excuse" to close windows. Terrible!!
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-20, 3:44 pm

george47 Power Kat
Posts: 1074
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KDuck01 wrote:
Supposedly "illegal" activities. Another lie from city government used as an "excuse" to close windows. Terrible!!

Are you saying that there is no trafficking whatsoever? No drug money laundering? No illegal pimping? No connections with Gangsters like those that kidnapped Freddy Heineken in 1983 and received a 16 million Euro ransom? Making these kind of comments is exactly the same as the people who claim all the girls are forced.
The truth is that both sides exaggerate (mongerers here and also some people in authority) for their own agendas and it's pretty obvious the reality lies somewhere in the middle. There most definitely are criminal activities going on (based on the things the girls have told me and things I have witnessed) but there are certainly not anywhere near as many truly forced girls as many claim (based on my experiences, conversations with people like Mariska Majoor and the well known Romanian blogger). Unless we look at the situation objectively we are no better than the prudes who want it all closed. Believe it or not but not everyone in authority is corrupt and some are actually looking out for the girls.
I actually think the only likely corruption would be brothel owners, coffeeshop owners etc giving back handers to the police to turn a blind eye when they do something wrong. I have no evidence of that but it seems far more likely.
It's weird how nowadays any thing a politician does that we personally don't like is instantly labelled as corruption.
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-20, 7:46 pm

KDuck01
Posts: 71
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No, I'm saying that using those reasons as an excuse to close windows does nothing to address the problems. In fact closing the windows makes the problem worse by forcing sex workers into more dangerous work spaces than the windows. I talked with Mariska today about the sudden announcement of over 40 window closures? Are you somehow saying that closing these windows is going to improve the issues you talked about? Because it's not. You should spend some time reading Felicia Anna's blog. She works at night and has done extensive research on the concerns you mentioned.
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-20, 8:00 pm

grimnul Power Kat
Posts: 1538
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There are definitely shades of grey here. It is irresponsible to assume that fault lies 100% on either side, and we do a disservice to our side by trying to dismiss incidents like these out of hand.

The fact of the matter is that your average person (not necessarily talking about in the Netherlands specifically, but worldwide) has a very negative view of prostitution, and is not educated on the issue, so people involved in the trade as well as customers like us do sort of need to watch our Ps and Qs. There are a lot of people out there that want to shut down the red light district (and any form of prostitution the world over, for that matter) and throw people who do what we do in prison to rot, as ridiculous as that seems. We can't give people like that ammunition.

As I've been trying to argue with politicians here in Canada, the key to keeping the sex trade safe and non-exploitive is regulation. That's a sword that cuts both ways. Sometimes, things like this are going to happen, and it sucks for us, but if the people in charge simply ignored these incidents, things would unquestionably be much worse for everyone involved. There are, without a doubt, unsavoury elements involved in this business, and it is best for everyone that they be removed. Better in cases like this to err on the side of caution.

It is what it is.

I think the ideal solution to this is to do a thorough investigation, and if conclusive evidence of abuse is found, the windows should be sold to a new, responsible party. I don't think there will be any shortage of potential new owners. I do agree that simply shutting down windows is not a good solution. It doesn't reduce the number of sex workers, it simply reduces the number of safe places they have to work.
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-20, 11:08 pm

george47 Power Kat
Posts: 1074
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KDuck01 wrote:
No, I'm saying that using those reasons as an excuse to close windows does nothing to address the problems. In fact closing the windows makes the problem worse by forcing sex workers into more dangerous work spaces than the windows. I talked with Mariska today about the sudden announcement of over 40 window closures? Are you somehow saying that closing these windows is going to improve the issues you talked about? Because it's not. You should spend some time reading Felicia Anna's blog. She works at night and has done extensive research on the concerns you mentioned.

No I don't think closing windows is the answer. However if an owner breaks the rules designed to protect the girls then he should lose his license which naturally leads to window closures. What other option is there? If they do close I suspect they will quickly open again under a different owner, especially the OZA windows. Last year windows in Sint Annenstraat closed for a while I believe because of license issues but were allowed to re-open later. In 2012 15 windows closed in the SexyLand area but 14 others were allowed to re-open elsewhere. Earlier windows in Molensteeg were closed after arrests for Hungarian trafficking but were allowed to re-open. These don't seem to be actions of corrupt people.
Yes I do read Felicia's blog and it's brilliant. She does however say things like there are no guns in the RLD whereas I have been there during a shooting, a regular of mine was forced out of Tromp after being threatened with a gun and another regular told me the pimps have guns available if needed. I believe she has the most accurate view on the internet but even she has an agenda, ie to stay in work.
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-22, 9:15 pm

neurosynthPower Kat XXX
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Sorry if I've missed it but what is the URL of said blog? Thanks!

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Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-22, 9:28 pm

retro Power Kat
Posts: 970
Location: U.k
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Neuro the links been blocked here so just google

behind the redlight district blogspot
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-23, 11:31 pm

lilji
Posts: 432
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There is the Remanence of a Trade Union for sex workers in Amsterdam I think. If it had active involvement from the more consistent workers and a leadership with this in mind, there's no reason they couldn't argue for the Union taking control of the windows (therefore being controlled by the girls themselves) and in turn wouldn't stand for any exploitation scenario (who would want to exploit themself?). It would almost be a co-operative type model. I imagine funds might be an issue tho it doesn't have to be buying the property, just controlling the running of it.
Re: Fighting Back: Window Closures
Posted: 2014-09-24, 7:24 pm

bt12610
Posts: 71
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have you all seen this?

"NEARLY 50 RED LIGHT WINDOWS REFUSED PERMIT RENEWAL IN AMSTERDAM"

http://www.nltimes.nl/2014/09/19/nearly ... amsterdam/
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