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Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-25, 10:26 pm

george47 Power Kat
Posts: 1074
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TurricaN wrote:
Apparently the possibility of a second referendum will be debated by the UK government. :)

I hope this happens. In just two days since the result, the Leave campaign have already back-pedalled on their promise of £350 million a week for the NHS, and the restriction of free movement. Many people voted Leave based on these lies. I wonder how much more of their campaign were lies? If the Leave campaign had been honest and truthful, Remain probably would have won. But instead, Leave pedalled a campaign based on lies, fear, misinformation, ignorance and xenophobia. Democracy failed.

There were multiple misleading statements on both sides, if not worse by the remain side. According to Cameron the world would pretty much end and even Obama said stuff he has now gone back on.
And if people were stupid enough to vote for the wrong side then that's their fault.
Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-26, 12:13 am

neurosynthPower Kat XXX
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george47 wrote:
neurosynth wrote:
If this is the first domino falling in a wave of xenophobic intolerance across Europe

It was precisely comments like that from politicians and others that contributed to people ignoring the advice to vote remain. There's only one wave spreading across Europe and it's certainly not xenophobia.


Then call it "nationalism" or "fascism" or "tribalism"...it's widespread and getting stronger...it's an appeal to the worst impulses of man...

In the Czech Republic

In Italy

In Greece

In Sweden

In Germany

More regarding Germany

In Hungary

and these links are just part of the first page of a simple Google search...

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Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-26, 12:17 am

neurosynthPower Kat XXX
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Even an introductory list has to include not only Gert Wilders of the Netherlands but also Marie Le Penn of France.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/why-we-should-be-scared-of-marine-le-pens-front-national-a6765751.html

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Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-26, 12:19 am

TurricaN
Posts: 129
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george47 wrote:
There were multiple misleading statements on both sides, if not worse by the remain side.

I'm not going to deny that both sides were guilty of misleading, but the part I've bolded is certainly not true, and I'm confident enough in that to state it as an objective fact.
Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-26, 12:44 am

greenhoffSupporting Member
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A lot of debates made me want to leave the EU, but one thing made it for me................

Cast your mind back to WW1..

France & Beluim............... help us Britain, we are being invaded by Germany... so, we did, losing 100"00"s soldiers, navy, air force into the bargain.

WW2, France & Belguim AGAIN. help us............as above, ....so we did AGAIN, losing more of our gallant men & women.........

Fast forward now to the migrant crisis @
Calais !!!

What do the French say ?

If you leave us [EU] we wont help you anymore, its your problem !!!! nice eh ?

Hate the EU, we are Gt.Britain..... F*CK EM

Now the high brass in Brussels are telling us to hurry up and leave !!
Too true, the sooner, the better

regards

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Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-26, 4:55 am

george47 Power Kat
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neurosynth wrote:
george47 wrote:
neurosynth wrote:
If this is the first domino falling in a wave of xenophobic intolerance across Europe

It was precisely comments like that from politicians and others that contributed to people ignoring the advice to vote remain. There's only one wave spreading across Europe and it's certainly not xenophobia.


Then call it "nationalism" or "fascism" or "tribalism"...it's widespread and getting stronger...it's an appeal to the worst impulses of man...

Well I don't support my football team but I am proud to be a nationalist and I am shocked that anyone would consider pride in their own nation to be a bad thing. I'm pretty sure that comes from evolution and a natural desire to put one's own first.
I am curious to know how many immigrants per year into a country the size of the UK would be considered too many by an open minded, non racist, non xenophobic person. 50 million? 5 million? 2 million? 100,000? 10,000? 10? If you say 50 million then that is your opinion and mine is much lower. Am I a racist or xenophobe for simply disagreeing on numbers? What is the exact number that makes someone a bad person?
Only two things can result from the existing level of immigration. Separate communities, bad feelings and trouble (Brussels for example) and even civil war in later years. Or integration and the destruction of individual cultures resulting in a homogenous single cultured identical people. Immigration is great on a small scale but once numbers go past a critical level it is bad for all. Like I say, my best moments have been with "foreigners" but do I want Agnieszka living next door? Yes. Her whole family? Yes. All of her friends, family, community taking over my street? No.
Regarding those links you gave. Xenophobia is the hatred of foreigners simply because they are foreigners. Those actions are about events. If 50 million people are allowed into the UK then there will be an enormous amount of trouble, not because of xenophobia but because of what it means to have 50 million people come in.
Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-26, 5:34 am

weasel9x9Supporting Member
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I'm very interested in the comments here.
I recognize the value of a "United states of EU" with a common currency, shared regulations to make trade more efficient, shared defense, free travel without border checks....
but it also seems that many of the southern nations in the EU have been lying and manipulating financial figures for years in order to gain enormous benefits and crazy terms for loans. Northern nations are paying this bill. If the northern countries, that actually played by the rules, were to be free to function without Italy, Greece and the like dragging them down, I think the "Northern" EU would do very well. Not that the UK has a lot in common with any part of the continent, but maybe the whole EU idea would have worked better in smaller steps, with a few blocks of 4-5 nations each.

I'm not optimistic that this will happen. THe Dutch already voted 'No" on the Ukraine measure, and I would think any vote on staying in the EU would have very similar numbers.

In the UK, I this was inevitable once the decision was made to stay on the pound. Im sure the pound will take a beating in the short term , but can you imagine the chaos if a country had to reintroduce its own currency.
Keeping the pound made this much easier.

It is an age-old cause for concern. The idea of paying taxes, and having someone with a different agenda in control of spending, has led to more than one uprising. This split has been very civil and organized by any standard, and I think it reflects well on the UK to see something this contentious come to a resolution with (mostly) adult behaviour on both sides.

I don't think it is Xenophobia driving things. Recent immigration chaos may have added a point or two to the ballot. It just makes no sense to me that the UK would be managed by anyone other than the UK. Can't imagine them taking orders from Brussels (or Paris or Berlin) regarding immigration, labor rules, environmental laws and the like. I just think that while the value of integration is obvious, the costs in the form of lost autonomy weren't fully appreciated until the last few years, and that those total costs are not seen as a good bargain.

And don't get me started about the idea of the Germans and the French sharing executive control of anything more complicated than a hot-dog stand....

Weasel
From a country so well managed that our next leader will be either....oh Fuck. Never mind!

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Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-26, 12:58 pm

TurricaN
Posts: 129
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george47 wrote:
I am curious to know how many immigrants per year into a country the size of the UK would be considered too many by an open minded, non racist, non xenophobic person.

The correct answer is there should not be any limit, as long as immigrants are contributing to society. Whatever happened to equal rights? The idea that you should enjoy more rights than someone else on the basis of something as arbitrary as "place of birth" is absurd and selfish.

It's interesting that every single person I know who has any complaint about immigration can't give me any concrete examples of how it's negatively affected them personally or anyone they know in any way. The whole immigration argument is nothing but FUD.
Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-26, 2:23 pm

jefke
Posts: 151
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weasel9x9 wrote:
I'm not optimistic that this will happen. THe Dutch already voted 'No" on the Ukraine measure, and I would think any vote on staying in the EU would have very similar numbers.


I always thought the dutch were rational when it comes to business. Would they take the risk of committing economical suicide?
Export is an important part of their gdp, and most is (after the brexit it will be less) inside the eu.
Ukraine or the european constitution do not affect the dutch as much as leaving the eu (i guess).

Here some figures from an internet poll. You should not take this too seriously because it is based on a self-selected sample.

https://www.noties.nl/v/get.php?a=peil. ... -06-26.pdf

Level of education vs pro referendum, pro nexit (translated).

Resultaten Nexit Referendum Peil.nl:

Code:
                 All  High  Middle+  Middle-  Low
Pro referendum  47%   31%   36%      52%      69%
Pro Nexit       43%   28%   32%      49%      64%


So the result will depend on who comes to vote.
Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-26, 2:48 pm

george47 Power Kat
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TurricaN wrote:
It's interesting that every single person I know who has any complaint about immigration can't give me any concrete examples of how it's negatively affected them personally or anyone they know in any way. The whole immigration argument is nothing but FUD.

Unwanted changes to communities and a feeling that our country is slowly being taken over by others. Something that countless Brits literally fought to avoid in the 1940s. That might not be important to you but it is to millions of Brits (and Europeans for that matter). It's people dismissing these views as invalid that lead to this result and may destroy the EU altogether.
I have said all I need to on the subject and will depart the conversation before it gets nasty. I am currently making plans to visit Europe again (which I love) and spend time with some gorgeous foreign girls of different races and from different countries.
Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-26, 3:22 pm

funfor2houston
Posts: 392
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I want to be careful and respectful to our friends the Brits and the Europeons as I am from the U S . How can you survive in a Union with people who tell you what and how to do things that were never elected. ! Great Britain is a great country with their own culture and their own ways just like everyone involved . It has been all over Texas here in the states that we will stand with GB . All the EU has ever did for us is make business tougher . The EU and GB have been stuck with thousands of undocumented aliens WHY ! We used to love going to Amsterdam and can honestly say we have never been threatened . But with the influx of undocumented aliens we have declined to go . Same as many of our friends . We are now staying in the U S . We have the same problems in the U S but we are waking up .
Friday I seen my 401K dive and it will come back .
I stand with the Brits along with many of my Texas friends and neighbors . Kind of a sidebar , because GB has always been side by side with the U S as in the Gulf Wars , we have been taught if you see a Brit having problems you stand there and help him you don't run !
Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-26, 4:43 pm

AlCaponedLondoner
Posts: 83
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funfor2houston wrote:
I want to be careful and respectful to our friends the Brits and the Europeons as I am from the U S . How can you survive in a Union with people who tell you what and how to do things that were never elected. ! Great Britain is a great country with their own culture and their own ways just like everyone involved . It has been all over Texas here in the states that we will stand with GB . All the EU has ever did for us is make business tougher . The EU and GB have been stuck with thousands of undocumented aliens WHY ! We used to love going to Amsterdam and can honestly say we have never been threatened . But with the influx of undocumented aliens we have declined to go . Same as many of our friends . We are now staying in the U S . We have the same problems in the U S but we are waking up .
Friday I seen my 401K dive and it will come back .
I stand with the Brits along with many of my Texas friends and neighbors . Kind of a sidebar , because GB has always been side by side with the U S as in the Gulf Wars , we have been taught if you see a Brit having problems you stand there and help him you don't run !


This is an example of how ridiculous it was when Obama said that the UK would go to the back of the chain if we voted out of the EU. Most americans like yourself would love to keep relations with the UK or maybe even improve them now we won't have any eu restrictions. It is a very exciting time for the UK!
Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-26, 4:53 pm

AlCaponedLondoner
Posts: 83
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TurricaN wrote:
george47 wrote:
I am curious to know how many immigrants per year into a country the size of the UK would be considered too many by an open minded, non racist, non xenophobic person.

The correct answer is there should not be any limit, as long as immigrants are contributing to society. Whatever happened to equal rights? The idea that you should enjoy more rights than someone else on the basis of something as arbitrary as "place of birth" is absurd and selfish.

It's interesting that every single person I know who has any complaint about immigration can't give me any concrete examples of how it's negatively affected them personally or anyone they know in any way. The whole immigration argument is nothing but FUD.


Yes because if you are against uncontrolled immigration it must mean you are a racist xenophobe! These comments make me die. I'm just glad the we're leaving and these pathetic arguments mean nothing now. The fact you think being born outside the UK means you have just as much right to be in the UK as and actually UK born citizen is ridiculous. The idea of having one big country(which is the eu's final game plan) instead of having individual countries in a continent will never work. There are too many different cultures and styles of life for it to work. Especially when you have large numbers of people from completely different societies coming from muslim countries to move in and pretty much take over. You NEED countries and borders. The EU will fall apart. It's just a matter of time. GB have just been brave enough to be the first.
Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-26, 9:18 pm

TurricaN
Posts: 129
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george47 wrote:
TurricaN wrote:
It's interesting that every single person I know who has any complaint about immigration can't give me any concrete examples of how it's negatively affected them personally or anyone they know in any way. The whole immigration argument is nothing but FUD.

Unwanted changes to communities and a feeling that our country is slowly being taken over by others. Something that countless Brits literally fought to avoid in the 1940s. That might not be important to you but it is to millions of Brits (and Europeans for that matter). It's people dismissing these views as invalid that lead to this result and may destroy the EU altogether.

I guess replies like this one that still don't give any concrete examples of why immigration is bad supports my point nicely. :)

AlCaponedLondoner wrote:
Yes because if you are against uncontrolled immigration it must mean you are a racist xenophobe! [...]

I don't recall saying that.

Attitudes like yours are one of the reasons I left the UK.
Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-27, 12:00 am

neurosynthPower Kat XXX
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It's not as if one has to welcome millions of immigrants overnight or one has to join a neo-nazi party. There is a lot of distance between the two, and reasonable people can disagree as to where the line of compromise should be drawn.

But to simply deny that there is an undercurrent, or overt statement, of bigotry behind *some* of those who call themselves nationalists is to deny a simple matter of fact. (Nationalist in this context doesn't mean pride of country, it means something more like fascist. Most proud European patriots are *not* fascists!)

While there are general migration problems, the big dramatic problem is refugees fleeing the Syrian/Iraq war forced upon them by ISIS. ISIS is an armed force of about 25,000 fighters. That's all. 25,000 barbarians killing, raping, and enslaving causing all of these problems.

Rather than trying to absorb millions of people why doesn't Europe gather its courage and go in and kill ISIS. And if it means leaving 30,000 soldiers in place for a couple decades to keep things stable...so what? Starting with WWII the US left tens of thousands of troops in Europe to keep it stable. Today there are 60,000 US soldiers in Europe!

Peace doesn't come from refusing to fight. It comes from knowing *when* to fight. Given the refugee migration problems, the resulting neo-fascist growth, Trump threatening to break up NATO and yank US defense from poorer countries, the EU shattering, and Putin over in Russia watching things fall apart and licking his chops...might this not be the time to fight and kill the 25,000 medieval-minded fanatics causing all this?

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Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-27, 12:11 am

neurosynthPower Kat XXX
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Meanwhile...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/26/a-sharp-spike-in-racist-incidents-reported-after-the-brexit-vote/

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Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-27, 12:52 am

weasel9x9Supporting Member
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I would be careful about quoting the Washington Post.
Hardly seen in its home country as fair, even handed, or neutral.
Currently owned by Jeff Bezos, founder of Amazon, a HUGE fan of illegal immigration into the US.
Many of the most respected staff ot the Post quit in protest when Bezos took over the paper.

Regarding the cries of "Racism", my take is that this is the latest buzzword that the left uses to stiffle debate.
Don't like the way debate is going? Call the other side racist, and end discussion!

THere is absolutely no way to check the background of anyone coming out of a war-torn middle eastern country. Refugees from Germany were regularily turned down in the 1930's and 40's as potential risk to national security. A decision to deny immigration to refugees from the middle-east region is not racist. It is self-preservation, and comon sense.

Weasel

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Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-27, 2:31 am

neurosynthPower Kat XXX
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The Washington Post is a respectable newspaper, and hardly the only source reporting the rise of right wing bigotry in Europe. Rejecting the publication rather than addressing the stated facts is not a compelling argument.

*My* references to racism are not knee jerk excuses, they are based on objective reporting and facts. I listed a number of news stories, so the tired "I'm not PC!" retort is irrelevant here. Again, you should address the facts.

Most mass killings in the US are unrelated to Islamic extremism, and the ones that are have been home grown. While there is danger, what is far more dangerous is striking a posture that makes the claim that the US hates Muslims and is at war with Islam. That's *exactly* what ISIS and others want, and nothing would make them more happy than for the US to act as if all Muslims are singled out for special suspicion.

Trump's original call was to ban *all* Muslims based purely on their religion. That he has now tried to weasel into a different "countries with Muslim extremists" standard doesn't erase what his initial statements revealed him to be…a bigot willing to discriminate on the basis of religion, an act so fundamentally un-American anyone trying to defend him should be embarrassed at the least.

Trump has also called for the mass registration of all Muslim American *citizens* and greatly expanded surveillance of all American Muslims including forms of profiling that have been found to be illegal in the courts.

We need the vast majority of moderate Muslims to be on our side, and not push them into the arms of ISIS. Any determined Jihadi can get into the US anyway, e.g. simply walk across the Canada/US border out in the countryside. Or perhaps you think we need a US/Canada wall as well.

(And of course there is Trumps suggestion to break up families and deport 11,000,000+ people with an emphasis on "the Mexicans." Anywhere else on the planet this would be called "ethnic cleansing.")

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Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-27, 4:30 am

weasel9x9Supporting Member
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The Washington Post is not what it once was.
This is no longer the pride of the Graham Family.
The ownership change was significant, and the "leadership" of Jeff Bezos has forever changed the culture, the goals, the editorial board, and the content of the paper. Not the same paper. Never will be again.

I recognize that there are racists in Europe. I just don't accept the position that the Brexit vote hinged on racism. I think it was more an issue of autonomy, and stated so. I also reject the position that objecting to the current state of immigration in Europe and the US makes me a racist. There are a number of perfectly good reasons to have a dim view of unregulated migration.
Let me count the ways:

Public Health-Ellis Island. Heard of it? The point of entry for millions of immigrants, it was a screening stop for potential immigrants. Those that failed a public health examination were turned back and refused entrance. Cholera, Tuberculosis, Leshmaniasis, Schistosomiasis, Syphlis...Take your pick. The right to ensure that immigrants are free of disease is not racism. The right of a nation to have AND ENFORCE laws regarding immigration is not racism. The right to turn away potential immigrants for not meeting standards is well established, and is not racism.

Respect for the rule of law--Part of moving to a new home is understanding that there are new rules. If your first act as you enter a new country is to violate the immigration laws, I have reason to believe that you will be less than cooperative with other laws that you might disagree with. Does not make me racist.
Immigrants from non-western nations have greater difficulty adjusting to western legal systems. I lived in the middle east for a few years, and could never figure out the local laws. Too different from anything I was familiar with. I expect that anyone moving from east to west would have similar issues. Doesn't make me racist. And, by the way, if I had stayed as an illegal immigrant in the middle east, I would have been treated harshly. Very harshly. Does that make the Saudis, Kuwaitis, and Iraqis racist?

Potential to assimilate--The most important concern regarding immigration. There is ample evidence that certain features predict which immigrants will succeed, and which will not. Selecting immigrants that have the greatest chance to assimilate and succeed, and refusing those that are not equiped for immigration is not racism. 57% of immigrants to the US in the last decade are on Public Assistance. Not succeeding.
Western countries are not agrarain economies. Good will and a strong back will not get you a job. You need to speak the language, have at least a secondary education, and may need specific technical skills in order to compete effectively in a western economy. Some knowlege and respect for Western Civilization, culture and Rule of Law also leads to success as a new immigrant to the western world. If you are qualified only for manual labor, have little education, don't speak the local language, and have no respect for local culture and tradition, you are screwed. Might get a job in Guatemala. Not going to do well in the developed western world. Will end up on public aid. And given the number of people already on public aid in the west, and recognizing that they and their children are doing poorly, I would prefer to spend what limited resources that I can muster to ease THEIR plight, before consenting to the entry of a wave of new people poised to fail. People with little knowledge or respect for Western Civilization will not succeed in Western Civilization. This opinion does not make me racist.

With regards to mass killing in the US, Islamic extremists currently hold the Gold and Silver medals. 9/11 and the Orlando massacre were both carried out by jihadists, the first primarily Saudi nationals, and the latest by the self-radicalized son of a very strange Afghani immigrant. Not a good argument for unregulated immigration. The truth is that religious affiliation has been used as a standard for immigration in the US for over a century. Christian Armenian victims of the Turks, surviving Jews following WWII, Bhudists from SE Asia, just to name a few. And not that I am in the habit of defending the lunatic Trump, but his call was to stop all immigraiton until someone, anyone, can figure out how to prevent importing a generation of problems. I wouldn't lose any sleep worring about immigrants being surveiled. The FBI managed to interview the Orlando shooter twice, and he seemed to to get on with his wishes, despite being oppressed and profiled.

I've been to Iraq, and have seen ethnic cleansing up close and personal. Enforcing immigration law is not ethnic cleansing. Sorry. Not even close. It isn't even racist. It is...what am I searcing for here...Oh yes...It is THE LAW. Been on the books for decades. You break that law, and you are subject to the law. Pretending otherwise is just painfully naive.

I'll stop here to let the flaming begin. I just don't put up with the "racist" labeling. I find it personally offensive, stiffling, and completely useless. There are plenty of very good arguements to be made on both sides. Get off the racist shit, and let's have a real debate.

Weasel

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Re: Effects of Brexit
Posted: 2016-06-27, 6:10 am

Aldebran LinkbatSupporting Member
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The issue of migration into Europe & the UK from the middle east due to Syria e.t.c has been causing concern here at the same time as the large influx of people from the most recent EU accession countries in Eastern Europe, so immigration was definitely a big issue in the referendum (along with the cost of the EU and the desire to "take back control").

Quote:
The EU and GB have been stuck with thousands of undocumented aliens WHY !


A direct result of the fallout from the Iraq war and the subsequent implosion of Syria, unfortunately.

(Incidentally, sending in European troops into Muslim countries to sort out ISIS would be a terrible idea, it would massively increase support for them and encourage home-grown terrorism. Better to starve them of publicity and keep bombing them until local forces can finish them off and the caliphate implodes. As for refusing asylum to refugees, that would require pulling out of major international agreements).

It's not surprising to read about some racist incidents after the referendum, mostly minor stuff but still depressing:

Quote:
In Gloucester, Max Fras said he was in a Tesco supermarket on Friday night with his young son when a white man became agitated in the queue for the checkout and began yelling: “This is England now, foreigners have 48 hours to fuck right off. Who is foreign here? Anyone foreign?”


To be honest I don't think that's unrepresentative of how a significant minority of people here really think; a visceral dislike of anything and anyone "foreign". In general though, although there is some racism behind the dislike of immigration, there is genuine concern about the sheer volume of people coming here and the resultant strain on public services (e.g schools, hospitals) and effects on wages (especially for people competing for fairly low-wage jobs with Poles, Romanians e.t.c) and house prices.

Recent figures quoted by the BBC put net migration from EU countries at 184,000 a year and non-EU at 188,000, with
3 million EU nationals living in UK (about 5% of the population), two-thirds of whom have arrived since 1993, with 250,000 arriving in the year to Sep 2015.

Those are big numbers, but until recently there's been a refusal by anyone in the main political parties to address peoples' concerns - the conservatives have liked immigration as a source of cheap labour for big business, and the Labour party have high ideals which see any concern about immigration as a form of racism.

It's hardly surprising a lot of people want to come here from Eastern Europe: this is a Polish woman quoted by the BBC and the same thing will apply in Romania e.t.c

Quote:
We felt welcome here and the pay is good. I can earn £7 an hour, while in Poland I would earn £1.50 an hour.


The interesting thing is that it is by no means certain that Brexit will lead to any reduction in immigration. There are some interesting comments by Boris Johnson that seem to indicate that the post-Brexit strategy may be to remain in the EEA free-trade zone which requires free movement of EU citizens:

Quote:
British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.


It would be very difficult to get full access to the single market without free movement of people, so I don't know how Boris intends to combine his points-based immigration system with single-market access. I'm hoping the eventual form the Brexit takes will be a Norway-style Brexit which retains access to the single market and the right to live and work in the EU. It won't reduce immigration (although there would be more flexibilty to restrict benefits e.t.c to new arrivals) and we would still be paying for single-market access, but as the vote was split 50/50 it seems a reasonable compromise. Any economic problems caused by high levels of EU migration will seem petty compared to the fallout from a complete withdrawal from both the EU and the EEA. With restrictions on immigration I think the best we could get would be a tariff-free agreement on goods but no access for services, which would hurt the UK.

As for the "cultural differences" with people from the EU, I'm not convinced they are very large. Apart from the language barrier, I don't think Poles or Romanians e.t.c are much different from the English in terms of culture. A Romanian friend says that a lot of her friends picked up English from watching Nickelodeon for example, and a lot of English/US culture is absorbed through films, youtube e.t.c. There is actually quite a sweet culture in Romania where foreigners from the UK e.t.c tend to be treated with a little bit of reverence, as coming from somewhere sophisticated that is worth emulating. As these countries develop and wage differentials drop, so will the level of migration into the rest of the EU. Immigration from Muslims countries is a different issue, but leaving the EU will do nothing to stop it (unless you believe that Turkey will be joining anytime soon).

Quote:
How can you survive in a Union with people who tell you what and how to do things that were never elected.


This sentiment is another of the big driving forces that made people vote leave. It's actually a bit misleading though, as the big decisions in the EU are generally made by national heads of state in the Council of Ministers. It's a typical political strategy to go to Brussels and agree X, then later for the same politicians to claim we are forced to do X by the EU. The EU parliament has been kept fairly powerless deliberately because national parliaments do not want it competing with them, which leaves a bit of a democratic deficit in the EU.

The newspapers here love to whip up stories about the terrible things the EU makes us do, but to be honest I'd struggle to name one piece of European legislation that causes me concern, and the UK has done well in terms of opt-outs and rebates that gave us a good position in Europe (an advantage we have now thrown away). Another point about the EU is that it has a general principle of subsidiarity - decisions should only be taken at European level if they cannot be effectively dealt with at national level.

On the other hand, the European Commission is a strange institution which seems to exist in order to propel the EU project forwards and churn out legislation, but it doesn't seem to be in step with the actual wishes of the people within the EU. Personally I think it would be better if the European parliament was more of a real parliament with actual powers over specific pan-european policy areas, with the commission acting purely as a civil service, but the EU seems to have this non-democratic core for the simple reason that it would be very difficult to push for further integration if it was subject to popular consent. Part of the reason for Brexit is that nobody actually had the chance to agree if they wanted to be in the EU (as opposed to the original EEC trade block) because the relevant treaties were never agreed by referendum here......for the simple reason that people would almost certainly have voted no!

I'm pro-Europe and voted remain, but there are obvious problems with the European project. For example the Eurozone requires some kind of centralised control of economic and fiscal policy to make it work properly which doesn't exist and would be resisted by national parliaments. I like the idea of the European project, and perhaps someday a United States of Europe (I'm thinking in 100 years time, not in any of our lifetimes), but it can't be done without popular support.

I'm sad to leave the EU (not least because I'm good friends with a Romanian girl who would like to move here and get a job). People seem to forget that the idea of the EU is partly to help develop the less well-off countries and regions to make Europe stronger as a whole, and leaving feels like a big "fuck off" to those countries. The widespread irritating "little Englander" nationalism already demonstrated in this thread is depressing, but I think that's about the level of thought that has gone into Brexit for many voters. Even so, I don't think the British were ever very enthusiastic about the "ever-closer union", laws from Brussels or the euro, so perhaps this was inevitable. Hopefully we can get out of the EU and stay within the EEA without too much economic fallout.

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