Crisis in the Frankfurt FKKs

Not to push a panic button and these things are do run in cycles, but I think it is fair to discuss these matters. That is what the forum is for.

I visited 2 of the big 3 in Frankfurt this week. In addition to that I had discussion with some people who spent some days at the third that I did not visit. I wish I could report that all is well on the FKK Frankfurt front, but there is certainly something amiss going on.

There have been signs of a “recession” since January. During my first FKK visits this year, I noticed a high number of women and few guests. These visits were usually on high volume days (Thursdays-Saturdays) and I heard and number of girls complain that male traffic was undeniably off and that even the top girls were suffering somewhat. Also a number of girls have moved away from the Frankfurt scene and are either in Berlin, NRW, Nürnburg or Augsburg. This is strange, especially since these should be prime money-making times for the FKK girls in Frankfurt. The Messen are running. Business boys are still flying in and out of Frankfurt. Where is the problem?

As a result of this recession, service seems to be off. Actually it is often piss-poor. Many people on various boards have referred to a “Laufhausatmosphäre und Mentalität” with the girls. This is to be expected as there are a number of Laufhaus girls who are working in Oase and Palace at the moment. 9 times out of 10 these girls will deliver a service far below your typical FKK standard.

This past week was a Messe weeks. A pretty decent sized Messe at that. Every year during this particular Messe, Oase and Palace do brisk trade. This week there was something rotten in Frankfurt.

On Monday I made a swing by World. Both girl and guy volume was somewhat low, even for a Monday. World still has a pretty decent line-up of girls and seems to be in better shape than the others. World has never really been a very high-volume place in any case. Not too many guys (maybe 25) and a like number of girls. I had great sessions with a blonde who I have known for a few years now, the dynamic and beautiful Olga, her country woman Katharina, and a sweet young thing named Camilla. She is about 24, has dark hair, is kind of thin and is of Iranian/Turkish descent. The only session that was a bit off was the one with Katharina, who is normally a great provider but I think that her mind was on her up and coming vacation. Therefore she was a bit more hectic than usual.

I was very tempted to try out a new girl that I saw. Dark-haired, nice C-sized breasts, good figure, a dollar-sign tattooed on her right ass-cheek. She has a very sexy look. Anyone know anything about this one?

The girls were a little moody and a number complained that business is just off. Quite a few were knocking off a little early. I was shocked to see Daniela leaving just minutes after I arrived (ca. 18:45). I stayed till 1 AM and witnessed the girl population be halved by attrition. Sunny, formerly of Oase, seemed to be in it for the long haul. I wanted to tell her that her change of work venue is not going to make people forget her reputation, but the girl is pretty fit and could no doubt kick my ass around the block for drill. The overall mood was ok, but there was clearly something in the air. It speaks to World’s credit that despite the current scene, I was able to have 3 good sessions out of 4.

3 nights later…

A pretty good sized Messe has started and I am thinking that if there will ever be a good night to visit Palace or Oase, then this will be it. Wishful thinking on my part as it turned out, but the research was valuable.

The gents that I was running around with and I decided to check out Oase. One of these guys had been at Palace the previous evening and was pretty harsh in his critical assessment, saying that the Frankfurt red-light area had more to offer. We hit Oase at about 9 PM. The parking lot, while not empty, was a little light for a Messe night. Inside there were a few recognizable faces but the quality was decidedly off. No Maria, no Nora, no Veronika, no Kira, no Steffi (she has moved to the club in Berlin, no Lizzy, no Donna (I hear that she is also trying out Berlin); hardly any of my favorites. A few familiar faces were present: Lucy (also know as “dead-fish” girl, kinda cute though), Alex, Sabrina, Judith, and (wait for it Chivaz)…Gabriella. She was a busy girl the whole night and it was hard to pin her down, but I have an answer to your question.

I was hoping to at least find one or two providers who would suit my fancy but after an hour I was still searching. This is how lame it was: It was a full hour before I had my first hard-on and this took place in the Kino when a particularly spicy porno was running. The phrase “Club ungepoppt verlasen” was starting to go through my mind when I caught sight of Beatrice. I practically ran to her and started a bit of small talk. She was very friendly and we were laughing a bit, but this just was not my night. She politely told me that a Stammgast of hers had just arrived and she really had to give him priority and that she hoped that I understood. I did, but I was disappointed. She would be occupied by this guy for the entire time I was there.

I started looking at Judith, thinking that she would be a good choice. She has always been a good session. However she was talking to a cute dark-haired girl with Asian characters tattooed down her spine and a dolphin tattoo on her left shoulder. Her name is Lila from Hungary and she is pretty attractive. That night, she graded pretty high on the bell-curve looks wise. I opted for her rather than Judith more for variety than anything else. The session was ok. Not bad FKK standard but nothing earthshaking and she seemed either bored or sad. I should have chosen Judith but I am a wiser man now.

There was one girl who caught my attention earlier that evening who had a pretty alluring look to her. She is a blonde from the Ukraine named Leonie and I thought about approaching her earlier that evening but I saw her send 4 guys away and thought that she might be a problem. However we made some eye-contact a few times and my smile was returned in kind, so I was willing to take a risk. It turned out to be a chance worth taking as she was a great session and saved what would have been a complete write-off of an evening.

There was a bit of drama at Oase that night. There were a number of drunken Russians who were whooping it up that night. One Stoli-drinking Gorbachev made enough of an ass of himself to cause 4 members of the security staff to set up a permanent presence in the bar area. The idiot even grabbed my arm at one point a said something inaudible. Around 1:30 AM he mistook a bed in one of the rooms for a toilet and barfed up a good bit of his booze. I am not sure why the let him stay but he was allowed to shower, dress and leave on his own. Despite this generous attitude on the part of Doro and the security staff, the drunkard was continuing to create a ruckus on his way out and his colleague was doing is best to control him as he got more and more aggressive.

Now, I mentioned that Doro and the security staff were showing great restraint in dealing with this guy. This surprised me for the guy should have been tossed much earlier in the evening. What is the reason for this? Could it be that the place is so in need of customers that they would tolerate aggressive drunks who puke in the rooms? Let’s hope not.

I am pretty sure that a visit to Palace would not have been much better. Nearly all accounts of Palace have been lukewarm or worse for some time now. I felt fortunate to have salvaged one good session that evening. I hear that many top-acts from the Frankfurt area are club-hopping; probably in an effort to find a more lucrative “home”.

Let’s hope that this situation rights itself soon. I hear that Lisa from Berlin will be in Oase starting tomorrow and that may help their situation a little bit. Not sure if that will be enough though.

Cheers,

Dedalus, who is waiting and hoping for an FKK bull market, minus the high prices

Hi Dedalus,

I guess I picked a wrong time to visit Germany right now.
It's really too bad to hear about your experiences.

I'm in Dusseldorf right now on the kickoff to my week.
I visited GoldenTime for the first time and sadly it echoed your experiences in Frankfurt.
Hopefully my trip to PHG will make me smile once more.

I plan on visiting World on Monday and Oase on Tuesday.
I usually have a better experience at Oase than World.

I will hope begin reporting my journey this week.

Thanks

Redstorm

Hello Dedalus,

It's your turn to get the proposition from a drunk. You no longer have to get jealous. Ha Ha..

I was at Palace on Saturday, March 11. It was dead when I got there at 5 PM and there were less than 10 girls in the lounge or the kino combined. I was lucky to recognize Natalie from Belarus and we had a very nice time. Your Donna (no longer at Oase) with the tattoo on her back showed up around 8 PM. Between 8 and 11 PM, the place was like a packed gay club - 6 guys to each ugly woman. I escaped from the noise and smoke in the massage area. Luckily, a new girl Georgino shared the same idea. She's extremely friendly and proficient.

CZ Nina was making her rounds. Julia from Russia was peddling. A new petite fake blonde from Colombia aggressively slapped my arm when I told her no the second time..... You got the picture.

By 1 AM, I could not take it any more or wait any longer. As I was about to get dressed, Katrin finally was free after spending multiple hours in the VIP room.

Unless you know who you are looking for, I would not bother with Palace. The receptionists seemed to have the same attitudes as those at Oase.

In contrast, my multiple visits to World in March were much more enjoyable, highlighted by Chanel, Jacqueline, Olga from Latvia, and Daisy from Bulgaria. Yet, the talents were nowhere close to the Fashion Party during mid-February.

Regards,
Fred

Hi Redstorm,

It's a more challenging environment. I wish I were there at GT to point out Melissa from Poland to you. She stays very busy most of the time.

Regards,
Fred

Thanks Fred.

I'll wait to update everyone on my trip after my visit to PHG tommorrow.
Can anyone give me any hints on how to kill 3 hours in Dusseldorf til it opens?

Also, can anyone replace my internal Romanian magnet with a Polish or other Eastern European country one please.

Redstorm

Bummer, I'm going to the World on 16th (overnight stopover at FRA) and I was hoping to have a good time like last December. Hmm, I wonder if I should just go sightseeing instead...

Iceman

Basically demand has fallen so competitiveness and quality will increase.

What I think we are seeing here, is as mentioned, a breif period where first timers are more obviously in number as some girls go out of business and newbies come in to try their luck. Only the very best of these will survive. This will have a tempory downturn in trade as the perception will be that service levels have gone down. In fact, the long term effect on service levels will be good, provided clubs are harsh on the bad service providers.

My only concern is, that the clubs (other than World) don't give a toss. I reported abotu this when I saw it comming at the end of last year at Palace. This attitude will allow the "cowgirls" too much free reign and they will turn off potential customers. The Customers, now used to FKK to the point of boredom will walk.

Look at me, for instance, I saw it coming and now I do my mongering in Dubai, where the scene is fantastic. Thats where all the Russian girls are at the moment, and working for less money too!

Having said this, the clubs need to crack down on bad customers also. Now is the time to turn the screw and keep the standards high even if the volume is small. That will mean that when there is an economic upturn, the recovery will be quicker.

You will also notice it come in fits and starts, with many false recoveries.

Generally though, its positive. As demand falls, quality increases, although the good girls will be busy all the time, and one or two other perculiar short term effects will kick in.

Any economists wish to elaborate? I am just a businesman after all, not an economist.

When demand falls, quality can increase, but it does not have to hold. In many industries, the initial reaction is to increase production efficiency to stay in business. How do we apply that reasoning to the economics of sex trade?

Not the most politically correct similarity, but what the fuck, here goes:

In the US beef industry, the fall in demand in the 90's resulted in focus on increased weaning weights and carcass weights led to the rise in production of higher yielding, lower grading cattle.

Chivaz

Chivaz,

Does that mean we can expect more fat chicks? :-)

Fear not gents, warm weather will arrive, the mood will be festive and pleasant for a while in expectation of the World Cup. Then the influx of World Cup fans will swell the coffers of anyone brave enough to ply their trade during this period but make it impossible for serious mongers. Then all the exhausted frazzled crazed and rich girls will take off for August and by September it should be wonderful again.

I hope.

Doog
Pepto

Hi Pepto,

Let't hope not. Today's beef industry is living with the genetics brought on board by misreading the market signal. Fortunetly, the girls are brought from somewhat different gene pools so that should mimimize that risk :-)

Ded: I am crapping in my pants of sheer anxiety waiting for the result of your conversation with my little friend at Oase :-)

Chivaz (not really an expert on beef)

Hey Chivaz,

It was quick and really just in passing and not really specific, but she should be there that weekend. She was not absolutely sure, but she thought so.

Cheers,

Dedalus, Vegetarian

If we pay Laufhaus prices, we can expect Laufhaus service, can we ?

Prices have been stable for quite some time, and honestly how can we expect the high level of service we want to be given at prices that are frightfully close to street level ? If you take the Amsterdam RLD service and pricing level and that iof the average FKK, you have to thank God that there are still girls working in the FKK's, making considerably less money than as free agents in any RLD. Hey, kissing and uncovered french don't come for free... I am surprised of an influx of street (well, Laufhaus then) girls to and FKK. If they think they can make money there more easy or faster, then the situation is bad indeed.

I heared from the grapevine that one NRW FKK (Sauna club, actually) was about to raise it's (half) hour prices by 20%. That is realistic and courageous - but by the given competition on the market suicidal, probably. Then, we are about to feel the the phenomenon 'inflation' really physically, it seems. 'World cup summer' may be a watershed in business, I fear.

my 2 Euro-cents

Gaston.
I want it clean, I want it good - and am prepared to pay for quality. Even if that means no more 50 Euro fucks.

If there is a lack of demand in FKK's then it will be felt on the street also. A squeeze is on everybody.

I personally think the money is a bit high, and prices should go the other way.

Having said that, I do not know what a Laufhaus is. Anyone care to educate me? "Run House?" Sort of get the idea.

Hi,

Ded: Thanks for the info, now I can get back to work :-)

'bout the prices and comparison to the RLDs, I've spoken to quite a few girls who were working at FKK at the moment and used to work in RLD environment. It is pretty much the same story, yes they usually earn more in the RLDs, but they opted for the FKK environment because of the drunken, smelly guy part of the RLD.

Hey Gaston,

You make some good points but I am not sure that it is realistic or fair to compare RLD/Laufhaus P4P with FKK/Bordello P4P. The smart FKK girls make pretty decent money. They realize that good service translates into much dough and in many cases easier earned dough. When I am in NRW I usually frequent girls that I know to be good providers and I do longer sessions with them than the standard €50/30 min. session. It is a little less common for me to do this in the Frankfurt area, but I often do hour sessions with my favorites. This is where the "quality" that you talk about being willing to pay for comes into play. Most girls would much rather do the hour sessions (or provide Fransözisch Total) than the 30 min. ones, and the better providers have slews of regulars that book them for sessions of this length or longer.

Of course not every girl operates this way and often these are the ones that sit around with nothing to do, or are scammers, or are just plain lousy at this job. There is a girl at Oase who, whenever I see her, I wonder how she stays in the business. She is cute, but is also an absolutely boring session. This is her reputation and I rarely see her busy with guests. I can only assume that she gets trade off of unknowing tourists who think that she is cute and do not know any better.

The Laufhaus attitude has usually been the best way to doom a lucrative FKK career. If a girl has a terrible attitude or is a scammer, then it will not remain a secret for long (either due to word of mouth or the various forums) and these girls usually just do not last. Even in a crises period like now, there are enough good providers to invest in and a scammer or Laufhaus-type provider will find trolling for trade difficult. The cute ones with this attitude may profit in the short term, but it will not last.

Now, if you compare the Laufhaus/RLD environment with the FKK/Bordello environment, isn't the latter a better deal? It cannot be much fun for a girl to sit or stand behind a window in lingerie or a bikini and deal with all the crap and ogling from the passers by. Plus these working conditions are probably much less safe than working in a bordello or FKK. Also I have spoken with a few girls who went from the RLD/Laufhaus thing to the FKK thing and many have told me that the FKK is just much more fun. (I am talking about the good providers here) Think about it: Much more room to move about in, nudity (this is Europe and I know many people who enjoy frolicking in the nude), music, saunas, pools, massages, big security guys, food and drinks... as far as the profession goes, probably only a classy bordello or working as a high-priced escort is better.

I do not think that a price increase will improve the situation, and with all due respect, I do not and have never understood why so many Europeans (my word, those Germans) react this way when things get tough recession wise. Economy slows, prices go up, fewer people invest in the economy, economy slows more, raise those taxes, economy slows even more... I am not a finance person but this seems odd to me. Germans (forgive me, their government) do not seem to understand economic stimulus, but they do know higher taxes. It is almost enough to turn this expat into a Republican. For every action there is a reaction and this would just mean that the locals would visit the clubs less frequently and that the business travelers and tourists (especially those who are spending dollars) will think twice about going to an expensive club that has a reputation for poor service.

If prices do increase during the World Cup, then I think it will have an overall negative effect on the whole scene. If I were running a club, then I might wait and hope that the dollar/euro rate stabilizes and then make a move to raise rates.

Pepto wrote:
"Fear not gents, warm weather will arrive, the mood will be festive and pleasant for a while in expectation of the World Cup. Then the influx of World Cup fans will swell the coffers of anyone brave enough to ply their trade during this period but make it impossible for serious mongers. Then all the exhausted frazzled crazed and rich girls will take off for August and by September it should be wonderful again.

I hope."

Hey Pep,

I think and hope that you are right. I do think that the economy and high Euro are playing a role and I am not sure how that will change in the next few months. I have noticed fewer FKK tourists from the US and fewer GIs in the clubs of late. It has mostly been Germans (not really known for being free-spenders) and Asians. The dearth of top-act girls is having an effect and the clubs need to realize this.

Still, I am also hoping for a bountiful spring and summer.

Hey Mike,

A Laufhaus is sort of an indoor RLD. Frankfurt has several. Pascha in Köln is supposed to be the largest. Next time you are in Frankfurt we will walk through one together, just to give you an idea of what you are missing.

Cheers,

Dedalus

Yeah I observed the low traffic issue too. I certainly hope that what Ded says about the good providers being more resilient in any environment holds true. This is because despite having less women and customers at the club, at least we can keep going back to our favorites.

In 3 days at Oase and Word a week and a half ago, I was fortunate that "my girls" were well represented and I was having trouble deciding who to go with next! Just 10 sessions in that period but only 1 girl I've never previously been with with whom I had the only 30 minute session, but clicked well enough to have an hour with her 2 days later.

That would be Romanian Elena at Oase, 23 y.o., about a 7 looks-wise, very thin blond hair a little past her shoulders, but she had a spinner body, 5'2" and no more than 47kg, a/b cups and the shapeliest schoolgirl bum I ever saw. No tats but maybe I remember a navel piercing... but am not sure. No DFK and kinda reserved and quiet at first but we warmed up quite nicely. She wore her sexy strappy heels to bed (which turns me on). YMMV with this one but I defo had a good time with her.

Other than that I was prefectly happy to have multiple 2+ hour uber GFE sessions with 4 girls I've previously had excellent times with. The only thing I kicked myself for was that I eventually missed sampling Maria. She put her clamps on Pepto practically the entire weekend! No regrets tho.

Point being (I know I'm rambling...) that I'm thankful that during these dips in traffic in the FKK scene, at least we have "safe harbors" to sail into.

Thanks guys for all your words here in this thread.

I'm typing this from one of the computers at the Hotel Excelsior.
I just came back from FKK World and at first there wasn't anyone I really wanted to see. I guess it was Monday and I don't have the experience to know who to see and spend time with.

When I get the time I will write my long long reports. I hope that my information will help new guys like you all helped me. For a guy with Grade 1 German taking strange buses and trains and navigating through the clubs, I am getter better with age and experience.

My trip started on a very very low note at GT. But then picked up tremendously at PHG on Sunday and the experiences I had at World make me feel happy once again.

Have a good day and night wherever you are.

Redstorm

Redstorm,
Hang in there man. These are tough times in the world of FKK's but glad to hear you are dealing with it. Sounds like you caught the 1 AM train in Giessen, no? Can't wait for your intelligence data.

Yooroo- yes, lovely little Maria really held my attention last weekend.

Doog
pepto

"I'm typing this from one of the computers at the Hotel Excelsior."

doesn't it drive you nuts that they swap the "Y" and the "Z" on the keyboard? :-)

Judging by the proper spacing of your post, you must have avoided the computer with the broken space bar. lol.

Dedalus,

For some reason, I do not believe that the sex industry responds to the default rules of free trade capitalism - be it because part is illegal (a rather important element, I reckon), be it because there is no (officially) regulated or even standardized market at all. I have little faith in free traffic of labour in the scene, and think a lot of girls go where they are sent to. And certainly the Hessen FKK's, with Palace up front, should be much more prone to Laufhaus mentality girls anyway, since the proximity to the town and the numerous Messe's. They can run on one-off customers there. Risk should be much less in remote area's, which is why I cherish Golden Time.

My example:
In NRW one of the issues is the 'rebate' for longer sessions. The basic first half hour is EUR 50, but every half hour -extension is only EUR 25. Good for us mongers, but this implies that girls doing longer sessions actually ave a lower hourly income. Partly this is offset by saving time to clean up and look for a new partner, but partly this is pure loss for them. Result: some girls, even quite decent ones, are not into too long sessions. They will do the odd hour or a little more with good clients, but no 2, 3, 4 hour sessions. A decent raise in price may fix this.

As far as the rest of the free range capitalism discussion goes, I rather opt out. Let me just put is that there is little chance of turning me into a Republican anytime anyway - and as American in Europe you may have noticed the overwhelming support of the average European-with-a-brain for the Democrats (sorry, could not resist that one, no offence guys).

Mike,
If you are in Frankfurt and do the walk with Dedalus or another friend, be sure to visit the Elbestrasse Laufhaus, if that still exists in full glory. LARGE, clean toilets, a cash machine - another example of German thoroughness...

my 2 dollar-cents, then ;-)

Gaston (Belgian and not German, but sympathising with my eastern neighbours in this)