After visiting last year we got sucked into the beauty, peace , and safety. Living in The US is like living in a war zone 24/7 you never feel safe, and now that we are parents we are feeling it even more. We've been discussing about living in Amsterdam (or close by, depending on money) but don't have alot of info on the important things, like government (how it runs), taxes, work( Tom is in Maintenance and we figure he wouldn't have to hard of a time finding a job in that field) . Anyway my point with this is if there is anyone here willing ot give me a little advice/information on this subject I would greatly appreciate it. Also anyone in nearby surrounding areas how are things where you are, jobs,money, etc?

This might help.

http://www.learn4good.com/travel/groups/group2.htm

It is almost impossible for an American to be able to work in the Netherlands. Unless you have some type of skill that is not readily available in the Netherlands or the EU for that matter. It involves your employer filing a lot of paperwork on your behalf. They have to prove to Netherlands government that the position was open for at least six weeks and that no EU citizen that was qualified applied.

Unless you are a doctor or a engineer your really only hope is to get transferred to the Netherlands from some US based company. I have a MS degree in Business Management with a minor in Spanish from NC State. I also have had the same upper management job for a German based company for almost five years.

Nobody would give me an interview. I applied for at least 60 jobs many of which I was over qualified.

This website can give you all the actual leagalities. http://www.ind.nl

War Zone?

war zone is an exageration but seriously I don't feel like my son will ever be safe living in the US, I don't want to have to worry about him or all of us for that matter walking out there front door, I want to be able to feel safe walking down the street, for example while in Amsterdam everyone walks down alleys and small hidden streets, here in Michigan, uhh no way would that happen, not unless you are prepared for it anyway. I can understand about them not wanting to hire a US, it's to much bother , but people do move there so there has to be something.... Right?!

Speaking Dutch is almost a de facto requirement to get a job in the Netherlands. If I spoke fluent Dutch I could leave for the Netherlands tomorrow.

The US has pretty much the same laws protecting it's workforce. Unless you are highly skilled, which makes you a better candidate than a American you can not come to the US and legalally work. Unlike the Netherlands, the US does offer unskilled people the opportunity to come here and work. Green Cards are given away by lottery. http://www.usa-green-card.com

It is quite possible to get a job in other EU countries. However, this job in most cases is teaching English. If you were to work in any of the other European Union countries for five years you would be eligible to legally gain employment in the Netherlands once you have obtained a EU passport.

I wish I would have discovered Amsterdam when I was younger. At age 29 I cant put my life on hold for 5 years. Paniked the Genius.

I hate to start a controversy here, but something needs to be said. Unless you are an atypical American (often being labeled as liberals and “un-American” subscribing to the ideals of liberty), you will find NL is everything that an average American is bitching at. Ask yourself if this is really what you want first before considering moving.

Simply put, it is a place of high tax (32-40% tax rate), socialized medicine, welfare, gay marriage, euthanasia, sex education, legalized sex trade and decriminalized drugs, relaxed and unenforced laws, useless police force, free-speech, non-existing political correctness – everything that a free-country should be – and everything that America is not.

Okay, I may be exaggerating here but you got the point.

Freedom and equality come at a price, and the citizens of NL are willing to pay high tax to attain social equality and accept it as a norm (without bitching about it like the Americans). It has the policy that no one is left behind, so they tax rich people to give it to the poor – something that Americans are unwilling to do.

They have socialized medicine (again something that Americans are dead-set against based on the myth that it takes away your freedom). Their social medicine is so liberal and equal to all that they pay everything you ever need, including elective surgery and cosmetic surgery, such as boob-job, face-lift or sex-change operation, something that most Americans find incomprehensible, and no American medical insurance would pay for even with your own premium contribution, not just tax money.

They have liberal welfare programs that would shock any American because they take care of every citizen, including the homeless and drug addicts. If anyone is sleeping in the street, it is their choice because the government will give them a place to live and eat.

They have free needle exchange program for the drug addicts, and even give heroin addicts free heroin injection so that they stay out of crime to get their fix. In other words, they take care of EVERY citizen because they value every citizen’s life as their responsibility rather than seeing as a burden of the society.

They have legal labs that allow you to bring any drug for them to test the purity so that you won’t kill yourself taking some unknown substance. They have the philosophy that they can’t keep you from taking drugs or become a drug addict, but at least they don’t want you to kill yourself with it and be safe if you do so.

They teach them sex at a very young age, teach them what a loverboy is in school so the girls can avoid falling victim of a pimp later in life, and expose them to everything instead of shielding them from reality of the adult-world or pretend that they don’t exist like the puritan American.

They believe in self-police is the best police, so there is no need for police presence because everyone is expected to behave themselves, which is why the crime rate is so low compare to the American counterpart. They believe in the flexibility of interpreting the laws called tolerance and freedom, something that Americans found unacceptable unless there is strict law-and-order for every minor infraction it is not free.

There are only 3 countries in the world that guarantee the basic human rights of same sex marriage – NL, Belgium and Canada, something that an average American is fearful of. They acknowledge the basic human right to die in dignity and allow euthanasia, something that the pro-life Americans do not share. They do not have death penalty (something that Americans are so proud to have tough laws and capital punishment, except that very few Americans know that the US is the 3rd country that has executed the most prisoners, just behind China and Iran, and there are only 5 countries in the world that execute juvenile prisoners, and US is one of them until a month ago which was finally struck down by the Supreme Court as cruelty to execute juveniles).

Political correctness does not exist in NL because it is so oxymoron to be politically correct. They speak their mind, something that Americans are not allowed by pretending to be politically correct. They believe that speaking up directly and freely does not necessarily mean that they are racists because everyone has an opinion and they are not afraid to speak up or being judged or scrutinized for what they say.

Lastly, the Netherlands is still a monarch! There is a queen, not president. The political system is parliamentary government, with 2 chambers, very unlike the US government system. The citizens elect the party in the parliament, and the queen appoints the party leader as the prime minister. The chamber-members (equivalent of senators/representatives) represent the constituents of the whole country, so there is no local politics or special interest to lobby only for your own state or district that is so self-serving and biased as in the US.

Unless you are very much unlike an average American, I wonder if you would be comfortable with living with the philosophy that is so unlike America. Are you really willing to throw away the so-called “American values?” If not, you are not going to be assimilated in the society, and end up fragmenting the Dutch society, not much unlike the Isalmic immigrants fragmenting their society right now because they shared none of the Dutch liberal and tolerant values.

Are you ready to teach your kids all these liberal views?

If you are not a true-believer of freedom and social equality, the grass only looks greener next door, and will ruin someone’s lawn when you move over there.

Lovebite~first off thank you for the info, second, let me just say just about everything you typed is why I want to leave, We are definately not the average americans, never have been and even if I had faith in the US I see no silver lining what so ever about things changing for the better. The only thing that bothers me is the high taxes but I would pay anything to have the feeling of safety and freedom for my son, he has his whole life ahead of him and in my opinion deserves to be able to become the man he want's and not have to settle and become just an average person (sorry if that makes no sense) I do agree with you, many people don't think things thru when it comes to something so serious, most americans are stuck in the american way of living that it can almost be mpossable to change, but that is not us by any means lol, off topic alittle but kinda funny, we were talking not to long ago about joining a commune just to get "away" from the american life as much as possible. When I think about the early sex ed., at first natural instict (of an american) is to think no way, but in reality I think that's great, how many young girls under the age of 15 have you seen or heard about being pregnant, drug addicted, with STD's, or dead from AIDS in the US? Sadly to many for me to count and *I* think that with more education on the topic many of these statistic would be way lower or non exsitant, I could seriously go one for hours but the bottom line is I will not let anything hold me back from giving my son a better future, even if it means moving to Canada instead.

The topic of working in The Netherlands has come up before, and the assumption always seems to be that you would have to find a job working for someone else. Does anyone know what the policy is if you're planning on being an employer, or at least self-employed? I know that the Canal House hotel on Keizersgracht is owned by an American couple, so it can be done.

this is thomas i have not been involed with this forum very much but as i read the posts lovebite gave great information and bought tears of joy to my eyes and only comfirmed how much i love nl. thanx lovebite any more info would be great too.
ps the only thing america values in money!

Weel, Thomas, good to know that there are atypical Americans around who think independently instead of following the herd-behavior.

If you want to be an emigrant, www.expatica.com is a very good source of info, and they have a forum where you can ask all the questions you want about emigration issues, jobs and the transition. Yes, you can be a self-employer establishing businesses there. There are success examples, such as the comedy club Boom Chicago in Leidesplein, are founded by America expatriates, but there are also countless failure stories too, just to give you a balanced view that not everyone made it through though, as in any business it takes tremendous amount of perseverance and luck to be successful.

If you truly want to be integrated into the society and assimilated into the culture, learning Dutch is the first and foremost thing to do. Dutch are very proud of their own heritage and their rich cultural background, and to be part of it, you really have to converse in Dutch just to get a taste of it. They have very strong national identity, even though they adapt to everyone’s culture and languages because they are surrounded by all the big players – German, French and the British, and everyone learns those other languages except theirs.

Having kids in school is actually one of the best ways to really integrate into their culture because culture starts at a very early age, and kids can bring a lot of community spirit for the adult parents. Do not expect to speak English even though English is spoken in most places, it is an attitude that you need to shake off if you truly want to be part of their society. Besides, it is a respect issue. You don’t expect them to speak Dutch to you instead of your mother language while they come to the US.

Another myth that most outsiders have is that all Dutch are the same. It is far from being true. NL is a very diverse country with many different subcultures. They don’t even speak the same dialect, so there are lots of regional differences. Because it is a small country, those differences can be found even when you go to the next town. It’s not like in the US that you expect every city to be so much alike. NL is a farm country traditionally, so you will expect the hometown feel. Even Amsterdam is a small town by any standards, it only has 800,000 people. The entire NL has only 14 million people of which 2 millions are recent Isalmic immigrants because they used to have one of the most liberal immigrant policies.

Expect that not every Dutch share the same viewpoint too, because it is very diverse. A lot of them are conservatives, especially farmers, but the difference is that they accept the differences instead of imposing their viewpoints on others, meaning that you can do your own thing and I do mine, so let’s be at peace with others and not fight about the differences. That is the tolerant part.

Although sex and drugs are much more liberal than most parts of the world, it is not entirely true that it is totally accepted universally everywhere in NL. Subtle discrimination continues to exist against prostitutes both socially and culturally. The only difference is that they leave you alone even if they don’t accept them, unlike the American way that if they disagree with you, they have the rights to bulldoze you into oblivion, and you have to pay for the consequences for their bigotry.

As in most European countries, Christianity has its strong roots in the society’s fabric historically. The only difference is that people leave religion alone, and religion is kept as private matter for individuals instead of public proclamation like in the US. They don’t bring religion or moral issues up as a political tool to justify their righteousness like what you find playing out in the US politics. In other words, people play fair.

Their education is contrastingly different from the US. They teach critical thinking so they know how to think for themselves instead of the mentality that education is defined by passing the standardized tests which means homogenizing everyone into cookie cutter regurgitation without thinking in the US. That’s why they laugh at how an average American could possibly believe everything they hear or see on TV and buy into those dirty politics, and never question anything they believe.

If you look at the end-product of the US public policy, you will find that it’s not a surprise why teenage pregnancy rate in the US is the highest in all industrialized countries, because sex is such a taboo, and teens learn it the hard way – in pregnancy. Infant mortality rate in the US is equal to the same rate of any 3rd world country because the US is the only industrialized country without universal health care coverage, not much different from an undeveloped country.

Why do people not complain about the high tax? Because they get real service from their tax euros, unlike the US, you get nothing back from your tax dollars. They see tax as a kitty pot that everyone contributes to, and you get to take out your contribution when you need to. It’s a fair deal, well, until someone abuses them – which is what happens now when the Islam immigrants move there, and then draw on their liberal welfare program. 90% of those immigrants are on unemployment because they are unskilled and without any education, and they found they get more money from the government than if they work. Too bad that some bad apples have to ruin it for everyone. Now, people are starting to complain why they work they buns off to support those muslims.

Any questions about being an entrepernure in the Netherlands can be answered at http://www.ind.nl . Just use the residence wizard.

As far as moving to Canada, it is not much easier than moving to the Netherlands. I have tried. It involves hiring immigration lawyers and finding a employer to sponsor you.

You have to bring something to the table. You can not seek asylum coming from the US. It is not about how moving to another country can help you, it is about how you are going to be an asset to the country you are moving to. Money is freedom. Put your kid in private school in Aspen. You can walk anywhere you want there. Trust me.

Im not your typical American. I want to smoke big chunks of hash all day.

I admire Lovebite's clear visions over the Netherlands , seen all the way from Cloud 9 -
many things are true, sure, but :



are we willing to pay tax ? - you should know how the Dutch are bitching all year long - not so different from Americans.



Is the crime rate so low ? - I'm flattered by the way Lovebite seemingly admires our unselfish community - we have a problem, like in the USA - Amsterdam population is 50% of "non-original" NL breed (who am I ... ) , no problem - as long as they integrate and pay taxes, Rotterdam same, (even worse) , Utrecht, Den Haag - the West of the country is overcrowded , in EC we are fast integrating with the East European communities , they will go up a bit an we are losing - I wonder what kind of job my daughter will find - how she will cope in a (jealous) society , the quality of which I can hardly predict ....
My worries are not so far from Tja0422's worries, about the quality of future life .....



a lot of lawns are being ruined here every day - so we can stand some impact ....

keep a cool tool guys !

Wim

I think we are in agreement, Wim. Of course, we all do bitch about high tax, NL is no exception, who would like to part with their hard earned money? That is a given. I think Belgium pays even higher tax, and they complain even more. It’s not that I don’t know that – not all Dutch see things eye-to-eye because they are very diverse, it’s just a point to contrast the differences. They are not using tax cut as the political tool to get elected like in the US and then turn around and bankrupt the country by record deficit and mortgage the future of the taxpayers who bear the consequences by our future generations, but most stupid Americans are not farsighted enough to see that they are taken for a ride and cheer for the champion of hypocrisy rightwingers.

On the other hand, to be fair, not everyone in the US is opposed to higher tax either. A lot of people are willing to pay higher property tax by moving to a good school district because it is worth their money when they see benefits of paying higher tax so their kids can get a better education. The sad part is that when these people moved into these communities, they turn around and bitch about it as soon as there is any tax hike. They forget why they come there for in the first place, that is the difference.

To give you an example, I moved into a neighborhood willing to pay higher property tax because I like the environment even though I don’t have any intention to have any kids to get the benefits of the better school system, I know I will never get the return of my tax dollar, but I’m willing to do my part as citizen to contribute to the kitty pot. I moved here because it is a community that preserves the natural environment so I can relax and enjoy the nature without the development of urban sprawl, but not for long... everyone realized how pristine it is to move into a rural neighborhood like this, so they all come by the truckload, and guess what? Now, my neighborhood becomes one of the fastest growing communities with development everywhere, and they build houses where there were trees before. The very reason why they come here is because of the trees, and now they bulldozed every single tree in sight to build their houses on. This is the Americanism. They destroy the very thing they wanted because it is all about ME, and screw YOU philosophy.

This is what I mean, people see grasses greener on the other side, so they move over to your neighbor and end up ruining it for everyone. And I see it happening in NL because of precisely the same phenomenon, everyone likes the attractiveness of the liberal policies and wants to move there, but unwilling to pay the price once they get there.

In fact, I have heard of the warning that if NL keeps having this open, liberal and tolerant policy, they would end up losing their country. It would no longer be the Netherlands as we know it with all the immigrant influx. It would be ok if they all subscribe to the same value and be part of the bigger whole, but the reality is that they never get truly assimilated, and brought along their own anti-liberty and anti-tolerant culture. That is what is destroying the very fabric of what makes NL Netherlands, because people come to NL for the wrong reasons. I wouldn’t disagree with you more on this. That’s why I pose the question in the first place, are people coming for the right reasons, and willing to preserve the Dutch values?

I have heard the natives say, “This is MY country...” and they mean it, it is their country!!!

Aspen is the place if you want to get away from McDonald’s and Wal-Mart, but it’s not much different than any place in the US in terms of the environment you live in, i.e., the mentality of using brute-force approach to solve any problem by maintaining a police state to keep peace. It’s already a military state if you think about how much your Big Brother can snoop on you.

The war zone that Thomas referred to is a direct consequence of the police state mentality – a cat-and-mouse game between the so-called “good guys” and “bad guys.” The tougher the laws get, the more hardened the criminals will become also. Violence breed violence, it’s that simple.

The mass shootings in high schools in Colorado and Minnesota were in small rural communities. The brutality is a direct result of the strict rules in this country. The tighter you put the lid on, the higher the pressure will build up, and the more violent it will explode on you. That’s what happened.

I don’t believe your kids will be any safer in Aspen unless the American belief (myth) that law-and-order is the only way to keep peace is changed. It’s no different from the belief that the KGB presence is the only way to keep the Soviet citizens in check. Even the Russians realized that tough law-and-order did not work. (To see a real-life analogy of how we created the violence in Iraq that was non-existent before, the insurgence in Iraq is a direct consequence of the military presence in their country. We created our own demons, but laid blames on others.)

Sending your kids to private school can be a myth to think that they get a better education. As far as finding the environment to develop their ability to be an independent free-thinker of liberty and not be afraid of censorship and conformity, it may be the last place you want to send your kids to. It is the perfect cookie-cutter environment where your kid would come out exactly identical to Joe Blow’s kid – dress alike, talk alike, act alike and think alike. High school in the US is a place of censorship and conformity, period. I don’t see how anyone coming out of that system can develop truly objective thinking.

Canada has a scoring system for immigrants. If you have about a million dollars in investment in Canada (which cannot be organized crime, of course), you can move there. www.immigration.ca/permres-legislative.asp The environment in Canada is a bit better than the US as far as the less political climate, less religious fanatic and accepting the liberty to deviate from the “norm” are concerned, and they tend more to support the underdogs than the mainstream. Because it is so close to the US, it is not entirely independent of the Americanism.

Before I start, please understand that I am in no way attempting to defend the current American administration, nor the hopped up on testosterone Marlboro man fuck you attitude that now serves as American foreign policy. I am also not defending the right wing fundamentalist Christian nut cases who have infected our government and who are, with increasing success, turning our democracy into a theocracy.

1. The US is a very divided nation. Virtually everyone I know supports gay rights, decriminalization of soft drugs, women's reproductive rights, and an end to our foreign adventures. But I'm in Chicago where 80% of us voted against Bush in the last election.

2. Most American cities are not war zones. I'm comfortable walking around most parts of Chicago. Most New Yorkers I know walk around their city without too much fear. Detroit is a different story. It was a one industry town and when the American auto industry went into the tank the city became depopulated. It is now an almost empty shell nearly devoid of any middle class. American cities don't offer the same degree of safety that European cities do. But we have some problems that Europeans have never had ie: easy availabiltiy of hand guns. We also have had to deal with the problems that grow out of our greatest strength as a nation, our diversity. Europeans our only now beginning to confront the problems that flow from having a very diverse population.

3. My kids got their entire primary and secondary educations from the Chicago Public Schools. One went on to New York University where she graduated in less than four years and is now in a doctoral program. The other is in the process of choosing between the 5 or 6 universities that she was accepted to. You can get a good public education in this country.

4. To say that life in the Netherlands would be a horror to most Americans what with gay marriage, euthanasia, legalized prostitution, legalized cannabis etc. is not quite true. It would be a horror to a large segment of our population. It would be the realization of a dream for many of us. As I said above, this country is unbelieveably divided right now. That's why our last two elections have been so close.

There are two very disturbing things about being an American at this juncture in history. First, it's disconcerting to know that you have vitually nothing in common with somewhere around 1/2 of your countrymen. And it's horrible to see your government present a face to the world that has nothing to do with the way that you and most of the people you live around think. I go to Amstedam two or three times a year. I come home invigorated and depressed. Invigorated for all the reasons that anyone who has spent anytime there can point out. Depressed because the experience just increases my sense of alienation from Bush and "red state" America. Because of my ancestry I can get an EU passport and I spend a good deal of my "spacing out" time trying to figure out a way to make a living in Holland. But I'm too old and I have too many ties here for that dream to come true.

I'm sorry if this post isn't very lucid, I just kind of went on. I just don't think it's fair to paint the US with such a broad brush. Right thinking people here may be out of power and we may be in a minority, but it's a large minority. There are lots of us. Don't give up hope.

this post kinda got off track, so who here besides Wim lives in the dam?

When you're there, high and looking at the city it's absolutely beautiful. Getting laid at a moments notice doesn't hurt either. It's a fantasy to live there and part of that fantasy doesn't include you not having Euro's to pay for sex, putting the daily stress of work and such into the mix and all of lives daily rituals which makes you want to get away in the first place. Once you're there, where then would you go? The reality is you couldn't spend your days getting high and fucking and because of that it wouldn't be the paradise it is when you visit.

Also, chill out on the war zone crap. You're not truly safe anywhere anymore and you could be a lot worse off.

On my very first trip to Amsterdam, I said to the manager of the Greenhouse Effect "This is a great country." His reply: "That's because you don't live here." I think Heynow hit the nail on the head. It's not so much where you are as how you adjust with the day to day routine.

Tom and Erica,
You are more American than you think. Talking about American values to someone who hasn't grown up here will always result in generalizations. it is unfortunate that liberal Americans are living in conservative times. From an American point of view and mine, your denying being "American" is a great loss. We need you to foster the values the will come back when folks are fed up with the conservative swing. Read a little and you will find that the values you seek are here but need to be fought for. Europe is very secular now and the current US political engine is spreading propoganda against it. I have heard the Republican spin engine spout things like "Do you want your cities to be like Amsterdam?". It disheartens to me that people give up. If you look at history and the turn of the 20th century and the late 1800's you will find that the US was a leader in "liberalism". It will be back, not for you or I but for your son and mine. I read a good book on this recently called "Freethinkers". You may want to take a look at it. Nothing good comes about in a society unless to struggle for it. I too am drawn to living in a more secular society. But for my son I know he will be an adult in times similar to the liberal times when I grew up in the 70's.
Regards,
A concerned American

How can you honestly make a statement like this "Living in The US is like living in a war zone 24/7 you never feel safe". That's absolutely ridiculous. What war zone are you comparing the US to? Now if you said "living in Detroit is is like living in a war zone 24/7 you never feel safe", I might buy that statement. Afterall, you claim to be from that city. Several of my co-workers and I work all over the US. Of all the cities in the US, most agree that downtown Detroit is one of the unsafest. I have walked the city streets late at night in Chicago, San Francisco, Boston and Houston. They are no worse than Amsterdam, Paris, London and Rome.

Living happily in the US, vacationing happily in Europe, Love both
Clyde

Hear, hear-